Long term KF project

[Holy_Diver]

^Ooh, a sweat ending with a proper boss fight to end a trilogy. In VI you race to Melanat just in time to see Seath and Guyra reemerge. You have to race inside to reclaim the swords, and then everyone fights both dragons together. And just when it looks like they are both defeated, the island is sealed, and we learn in VII (new trilogy) that the Guyra in that fight was a false image made by Milia, and really Guyra slipped out in the form of (possessed) Solomon

[dmpdesign]

Ive been keeping tabs on your posts Holy, the stuff you have laid out really sounds awesome, there is part of me that hopes somehow you will inspire yourself to make the game. ‎  I know you have posted that you would be looking for someone to do alot of the actual game creation around your ideas and so on, and although such a person may exist in this world, finding one to do the game justice to your vision, with such a custom tool as SOM might just be an unreachable goal. ‎  It would be sad to see your visions and talents never realized, ‎  I would very much like to play a game solely created out of your head.

Please don't take this as an argumentative post, I am merely trying to encourage you build your game the way you see fit so we can all enjoy it, and not idly sit by and hope for its completion by some miracle worker someday :)

[Holy_Diver]

^Games like these require hundreds of people to make them. It'll be impressive if something like this can be done with just a dozen full time people. It's not a question of hoping for a miracle. Unless you'd call people working together a miracle.

To be honest ‎  I didn't see this coming. But just so you can wet yourself, know that I am well committed to it at this point. If I wasn't I wouldn't be posting it here in an attempt to seek approval. It would be a p.r. nightmare if I am making these games without the backing of KF fans. Never mind wresting an entire IP away from its commercial enterprise

[Holy_Diver]

Here is a more solid argument why Guyra is associated with the Dark Slayer, and Seath the Moonlight Sword. To me this represents the taijitu and the only reason Guyra can be so logical is because his magical qualities exist in the Dark Slayer and vice versa.

But a better and more obvious way of looking at it, is the swords are the dragons prisons. So the Dark Slayer is Guyra's prison, and the Moonlight is Seath's. So when the dragons are exorcised from the swords Seath springs from the Moonlight and Guyra from the Dark Slayer (fyi: this prison angle is the original idea buried in this post)

They are kind of like the hearts of the dragons too. They kind of have a deal to keep the swords away from each other so they can be immortal. But also the way to undo the dragons is always guaranteed to be part of the universe. If one dragon is slayed, the taijitu (harmony) is disrupted, so catastrophe follows, like in KF3.

This also explains why Guyra would opt to seal Seath up rather than dispose of him; edited: in VI. Both dragons I think want more than anything to be the only dragon, but they have to accept that their fates are intertwined.


PS: To my mind the swords have poetic meaning. Dark Slayer means enlightenment, to slay the dark, so Guyra is all obsessed with logic, so his thing is to bring about an age of reason. And Seath's thing is magic. He wants to bring magic back into the world, and bring to an age of whimsy or whatever, where nothing is certain or knowable. So in our beloved Moonlight sword there is a kind of aura of magic, but also, I see Guyra as being interested in truth, and Seath being interested in lies. Or virtual reality. So the Moonlight has a kind of falseness to it, like the light reflecting off the moon. It looks like the moon is a light source, but it really isn't. I like to associate these two demi-gods with Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, which I consider the archetypes of Lucifer and Satan (the original angels that spawned all angels) for literary significance. So I consider Seath and the Moonlight to be satanic (edited: obviously not in a knee jerk bogey man sense) in that they create virtual realities that compete with reality. I do think the Moonlight is based on Stormbringer too. Which is literally Satan. I think this wider perspective anyway gives the Sword of Moonlight a much larger literary cachet. And ties it into the real world. Which authors could use to make very interesting games that go way beyond the likes of standard King's Field fair.

PPS: So together the dragons and swords are like the eyes of Horus. The Moonlight is the moon, light and shadow, or how we describe film, and art, photography. And the Dark Slayer is truth, the sun, not only is it the bolt of lightning slaying the night sky, it is the sun literally extinguishing the night. And the moon reflects the light of the sun. Just as art, fiction, reflects truth. Mind you King's Field is just a game, and to my mind any KF game is set in a VR setting, so we can have this understanding, and also recognize that it is an understanding simply built into the game by its equally fictional creators, just as Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, is a fiction be she Dorothy of Oz or Dorothy of Kansas.

EDITED: I also guess that would make Dark Slayer Mournblade. And just to be clear I have little doubt in my mind that King's Field's designer(s) had these swords in mind when planning their trilogy. Planning these trilogies out. Neither can I fathom the trilogy being improvised completely game by game. It seems like they'd all have to be planned out in advance. It's just too tempting to go into games two and three when planning a single game.

[Holy_Diver]

Does anyone have ideas about the original trilogy? I gotta admit that I really have zero understanding of it. My interpretation is no better than matching meaning to moving pictures.... kind of like how foreign films would be be translated before people got all concerned about preserving the meaning of the things being said.

I have this (\<span> site blocked, contact your administrator/kf/)

Seems to suggest that there was a great war, if not the first, the last, that somehow ended thanks to a warrior called "The Dragon of the Forest" who is either faerie or demon. And a prophecy that they would one day return. The only way to read that insinuation wise is Jean is the beginning of a prophecy, and a resurrection of "The Dragon of the Forest". It says he will possess a magical weapon, so that can only be the Moonlight. It seems to prophesizing his rise to king as a kind of savior.


Then what happens in 2? I can't figure out why there is a burst of blue light. I know a little while back to mark the Tsunami some blue lights were aimed up into the sky in Japan. I don't know if that is tradition or what. But pictures in Time magazine looked like how that is described in the intro. Is that Guyra being summoned? Or just a distress signal to get people to come to the island?

Anyway, it seems like a force of knights investigate the island, and then Aleph shows up later. How did the Moonlight get to Guyra? Seems like Dias would have had to stolen away with it, and brought it to Melanat. Can we assume Guyra is controlling Dias? Seems like deciding to go to Melanat of all places is an odd decision.

Dias' title is Pope. Does that make his minions Monks? They kind of look like monks to me. Who were they originally? Did they guard the mines or something? It certainly looks like a Lovecraftian cult setup. And Guyra in KF2 definitely looks like a Lovecraftian monster.

Do people worship the Dragon of the Forest? Or is that just an old prophecy? Do they associate it with Holy magic? If so is Pope a proper title? Like Dias thanks he's found the object of worship. But presumably the object is not quite what you'd expect, still its the object nonetheless? Maybe the "monks" just think they're taking orders from the Holy Dragon of the Forest.

It seems like if Dias can control night and day (I don't think that would survive a remake) then that would be the work of powerful light magic you'd think. Almost like the island is lost out of time or something. That would be reason enough to follow his orders. Especially if monsters rule the night.

I am not sure it adds up however you cut it. Its difficult to assign motivations to Guyra. Maybe Guyra and Seath are bored and want to die so they can recharge or something, but won't allow each other the favor. Or maybe they want champions to try to kill the other because if they tried to fight that would somehow bring them back together. Like maybe that's how Valad ensured they'd need to gather armies around themselves.

There's definitely a lot to unpack here. Even armed with the definitive (read: literally translated) story they might not add up to much. But how can we make them add up to something is the bigger question?


PS: I like the idea of the monster Seath in KF3 not really being Seath, but being a kind of half Valad half Seath ‎  thing. Like if when Guyra is killed in KF2 the Dark Slayer could get stuck in him, so he can't come back. Then that means half of Valad is restored. Then that just leaves Seath. So you take the Moonlight and kill the Seath half in KF3. The Moonlight seals off Seath...

So that in a new IV (see subject post) can have the player find both swords stuck in the roots of the Dragon tree, where the roots would vaguely resemble the dragons. The Dark Slayer would be in a subterranean chamber that is inaccessible until game V where the continent is flooded, so water has filled up the caves, and you can explore more of the chambers that way.

Then you wouldn't get to see Seath proper until VI, but VI would come before III anyway, so it wouldn't really matter. Guyra in II could be more interesting than in VI because he could have those qubits each form a magical field so that you'd have to take them out to break down his defenses against the dark slayer. Plus in VI as planned Guyra would be Milia making an illusion, so he would be easier to best.


EDITED: It's possible "Dragon of the Forest" could be read as the person possessing the Moonlight. Plus there is the special armor in KF1 that is sealed off, that is Forest Dragon Armor or something. So to say the least a man once wore it that must have been the so-called "Dragon of the Forest". Maybe Guyra is just trying to steal that title because he happens to be a dragon??? I dunno. I like the idea of the warrior being a Dark Elf that escaped from Melanat with other Dark Elves that were enslaved by High Elves, and made their home in the northern forests surrounding the Veld sea carrying on their worship of Guyra in the form of Milia who would act as an emissary since Guyra cannot leave Melanat for some reason (but I like the idea of him being a faerie/demon even better, which would make him one of Guyra's (proposed) experiments like Milia... in theory it could even be Milia if she is that badass and we just don't know it)

[Holy_Diver]

^Here is a solid explanation for the Blue Light...

Say the intro movie for KF2 is from the perspective of Dias (or something else) who has stolen the Moonlight sword. And then when this person or thing sees Melanat through the porthole of the tower, somehow they are teleported to Melanat. And if the Moonlight itself didn't do that. Then at the least when they land on Melanat, if they were shot down from the sky, then the blue light would have been the light of the Moonlight sword just as if it was thrust down from the heavens.

I kind of like the Moonlight sword as a key to the heavens. A means of communicating with the gods or whatever. That's how it is proposed to work in new IV anyway as explained. You need someway to get Elfos and Elwin's attention. So you basically take the sword to the top of the large island where there are a bunch of pure elves keeping all of the plants and animals alive. And somehow they know how to use the sword to contact Elfos on the moon, and she relays the message to Elwin (the sun) and the player gets teleported to space, blue light in reverse, where you have audience with the two of them, and they agree to repair the atmosphere. I imagine that entails springing for some Water and Wind dragons, otherwise we might never get to interact with living dragons.

Anyway, if the sequence of events went this fast. It seems like the Monks would've already been servants of Guyra before Dias arrives. And then Guyra would be controlling Dias. So really he may as well be Guyra. But I think whenever the dragons control people this way they really shouldn't have complete control, because things are much more flexible that way. It makes sense if they could convince Valad to go schizophrenic, and fork into the two dragons, they could mind control a man like that. Maybe it was the mind control alone that drove Valad to madness, and that's reason enough for the Dragon tree starts making monsters. And maybe the dragons only arrived a little bit later, like the final two monsters to emerge.


Semi-offtopic: another idea I like is linking the elementary elements to metaphysical things. So that somehow souls are fire, and bodies are earth, and wind is masculine, and water is feminine... together they produce life, or an atmosphere suitable for life. Earth is the life, or earthly delight, and fire is the spark of life.

[Holy_Diver]

What would be messed up is if Milia was the so-called Dragon of the Forest. And Jean was Milia's kid, but Hauser never told him. And Hauser never knew Milia was a fearie/demon

I like strong woman progenitors. Maybe Guyra got tired of looking for champions and just made one


EDITED: It would be pretty sweet if in VII Solomon was the leader of the Vampires even though he is a man (possessed by Guyra) and Milia is like his daughter (literally being the creation of Guyra) and the prototype for the vampires. That's an easy setup to explain why the vampires are all immortal assuming they are.

PS: The nickname Dragon of the Forest could have come from Guyra fighting by the warrior's side, or being available in summoned form with earth magic. Assuming the dragon isn't Seath or some dragon X no one has ever heard of (let's not go there)

[Holy_Diver]

EDITED: If that were all true, you'd have to assume that the role played by Dias was always meant to be played by Jean, but somehow things didn't work out as planned (edited: oooh, Seath got to Jean first... Jean is even possessed in the story in the KF2 manual before the game even begins, that much I do know )


PS: Maybe Dias is a backup half-and-half kid. He has all kinds of magic attacks. Maybe Milia had twins (wouldn't want her to go through two pregnancies; assuming the kids weren't born in those vats <(hey if I was Milia you'd bet that they would've been))

[Holy_Diver]

FYI: My gut interpretation of KF2 is Aleph is acting, unwittingly, as an agent of Seath. I don't think Seath has enough roles to play, and it only makes sense that if Aleph just kind of wanders onto the scene with no real motivation, and ends up slaying Guyra with the Dark Slayer, made by Leon Shore (who may even be Seath in my book) the only explanation is he is being driven by Seath.

I don't know the dialog, but I just don't buy it that Guyra wants someone to come to him and kill him and take the Moonlight sword that he just worked so hard to obtain, after just having given it to Jean in KF1. The only thing that makes any sense at all in fact, is Seath possesses Jean, we know this as fact due to the end of KF3, and its even explained first thing in the KF2 manual that Jean is possessed by an unseen force from the East if I am not mistaken, which is a land that is not well known. That even lends to the idea of Seath residing in the east and being a Japanese like Shinto nature dragon since we know stuff from the east is Japanese (I'd have to check the manual to be sure its the east, but a direction is given, Jean looks out the window in that direction feeling an ominous spirit enter his being... if it isn't the east I'd rewrite it that way)

So Guyra must get the Moonlight away from possessed Jean, so he sends Dias to do that. And then Aleph foils Guyra's designs, and in doing so curses the kingdom. Its so weird, but its like the bloody games are puzzle waiting to be deciphered. At first they look impossible to make sense of. It's like From's man designed them, but wanted to keep everything secret, which is admirable in a very real way, but not really a luxury we have in the days of the internet and people doing it for themselves (to be honest: it's spooky, but sometimes it almost feels ‎  to me like it was supposed to be unraveled this way)


PS: On the subject of gut interpretations. I will freely admit, that my gut feeling is that Guyra is really the good guy in this cycle, even though every step of the way he looks like the bad guy. I think in theory in an alternate universe Seath could've been the good guy, and Guyra the bad guy. But I am of the mind, that it isn't really a situation where both dragon demi-gods are bad guys. I think Guyra is genuinely good, or at least trying to be, and the only hope if there is to be a hope, but the optics are just bad. I think that's why he's so ugly design wise. The moral of the story is the truth isn't always pretty, heck maybe it never is if it's not supposed to be... and it isn't always obvious either. I think truly its a modern morality play. Seath is the old ways, Guyra is the new ways. He represents transparency, justice, and uncompromising honesty. In other words Guyra is the dragon of reality, and Seath is the dragon of irreality...

Guyra offers the Moonlight Sword, a part of Seath, as his ultimate gift, art, etc, all the things we toil to enjoy in the modern world. And Seath offers the Dark Slayer, a part of Guyra, or the promise of enlightenment in an age of darkness, the apple in the garden of Eden, the old world. That's just my interpretation. I hope it doesn't ring too sacrilegious to KF. I don't even know you can call it an interpretation given the dearth of my understanding. But its my inspiration. Its how I hear the music.

Ultimately to me the Earth Dragons represent the entire spectrum of earthly delight. I think its unique among the elements in that way. Its the last of the four too. So that gives it a certain kind of specialness. Like the cherry on top (and Light, well that's when you get to scarf the whole thing down without a care in the world )

[Holy_Diver]

This is sweet...

The Google translator is getting a bit better with Japanese...

"King was watching the eastern forest forever staring into the distance as far away from the window of the castle, or to predict possible future tragedy."

Also the place where the evil assaulting the king is coming from a hick village (with a purposely unpronounceable name I think... there is so much word play in the names I tell you. I remember looking, and I couldn't find anything resembling this name in Japanese) in the east. The east is a place the three kingdoms fear, like I suspected. I think of it as mainland China, and suspect there is an isolated kingdom just like Japan on an island off the mainland that even the three kingdoms doesn't have any kind of relations with, or know anything much about (I think maybe Jean is on the eastern border of Verdite, or maybe its just a really really small place, but the east of wherever he is at is described as a untamed thicket incompatible with civilization... to be honest it seems like Elegria can't be that big to be able to see Melanat in the KF2 intro from a tower off the island, presumably the tower is even wherever the main castle of Verdite is situated, which could be in the north, but not in the north of the continent... but were it up to me I'd say the tower in the FMV was just an outpost that allowed for the best view of Melanat for purposes of teleporation, possibly a lighthouse)

This kind of seals it to me that Seath is a dragon with Shinto like qualities. And I think like Shintoism, he represents old conservative ways, that can't even be compared to modern western values. In other words he is magical, and also represents nature. I like to liken him to Satan, but your mileage may vary. There is a long tradition of ascribing nature to the devil. Because it is so brutal and harsh and inhospitable, but most of all devoid of morality mainly. Might makes right. But I think this is offensive to a lot of peoples sensibilities, so I prefer to describe Seath as a Shinto nature dragon of magic and the four elements. Still that links him to paganism which is also linked to Satan, but never mind. People turn pale when you say Satan nowadays. I don't think its the same in Japan though.

Casting Seath that way kind of changes the tone of the High Elves too. They could be more like hopelessly rigid pre-WW2 Japanese socialites than bankrupt holy roller aristocrats (which if nothing else would feel more elfin to a western audience)

Also Google's translation reminded me that its best to spell Egrek with a Y. I'm going with Ygrech, to make it appear more Grecian. That's the esthetic I like for it.

Also the last bit in the manual mentions that Aleph is a friend of Jean. Both being royalty. Even though presumably Jean is new royalty, so I am not sure they could've been friends for all that long. I think casting Aleph as a royal also gives him dubious qualities. Because we tend to not think highly of royalty. I think he's a Parsifal figure honestly. The idea of giving a player a game where if they really know the story arc know that everything they are doing to progress it is really a fools errand is very interesting. It really drives home that you are playing a role. As in, "This is first and foremost a story telling medium (as art should be and has always been) and not a vessel for your ego."