Long term KF project

[Holy_Diver]

Disclaimer: one piece that doesn't fit is: if Dias made away with Moonlight and teleported to Melanat with it. Then he would've gone alone instead of with Nola and Fei. Maybe that's why you go back to Melanat at the end of Dark Destiny, makes you wonder what brought them there in the first place

Don't know if that means the monks were already under Guyra's wing, or if Dias recruited them. I kind of like the idea Dias infiltrating the cult at first out of curiosity, but it still doesn't explain why the three of them were on Melanat of all places. Actually what would work best I think would be if Nola and Fei were summoned by Dias for company; either unwillingly or without knowing what they were getting into. Or if Nola was and Fei came with to protect her. That seems like just the thing a Pope would do, and nothing else really makes sense. Plus it makes Nola and Fei much more sympathetic characters with genuine motivations


PS: At dmpdesign I realize this version of events means Nola and Fei ‎  could not make cameos in Dark Destiny, but then neither could a telling of these events take place on Melanat. Hmmm, I seem to recall some accounts of Dias. I see there are 3 more pages from KF2 that I didn't put into the Google translator. I gotta tie this stuff off for the night, but maybe they will have some insights in the morning.

Its funny how writing stuff down in forum post really gets the ideas flowing. I honestly had zero ideas about the original trilogy before tonight

[Holy_Diver]

There is no mention of Dias in the manual except for news of a man calling himself the Pope appearing on Melanat. Presumably that would mean that Dias was up to no good on Melanat before the disappearance of the Moonlight sword, but it seems that the force of knights were sent before the Moonlight sword disappeared. So Aleph arrives just after. I think it says demons wrecked his vessel, but I am not sure. It says Aleph happened to study with Jean because Hauser was a renowned swords master and trained the royals in swordsmanship.


PS: I haven't had thoughts about a game VIII, but it seems to me that playing as Milia would be a good way to go, because I don't see anyway to continue from the story of VII as conceived so far. I think maybe the vampires aren't really immortals, they just keep producing new bodies in those vats and somehow transfer memory over. But maybe by game VII they have perfected immortality with science like techniques. They have a millennia or so to work with, so their science should be more powerful than what we have to work with.

Anyway, I think since Milia is kind of a constant. It would be very interesting to bookend the series by playing through her entire life more or less. If she was the Dragon of the Forest, you'd start with that trial. And just kind of see everything through her eyes, until you catch up with the time of the third trilogy, and then play out the rest of her story. I see her betraying the dragons ultimately, so to create a world without dragons that looks like our world. I think this would be the natural end of the series, 9 games seems like a good number to stop at. If something came after it would be set in a contemporary like world without magic anyway. Which could be interesting too (maybe that could be spinoff series called KF X)

Milia seems like the only character that would have the authority to break the proposed seal on Seath. Maybe she ventures inside and finds sympathy with the people living in there. BTW. Seath does kind of sound like Set. Just saying. I think Milia would be a kind of mother nature figure if she ended the age of magic, which seems fitting if she is a faerie / of the Forest.

The 9th game would have you playing a new character. I think there's never been a showdown between the Dark Slayer and Moonlight. That seems like the perfect way to end a 9th game. Player 1 would wield the Moonlight. And I see it ultimately shattering the Dark Slayer into many shards, and then the vampires all swarm onto the shards each taking one away. So that's how magic and monsters survive into the modern world. And the Moonlight sword is buried somewhere. I think it would be a good gesture to set this game in the Easter kingdom that would look like Japan and figure out where From's offices are and bury the Moonlight there.

Then the 9th game could end with images that look like the modern world, and some kid making a game with the Sword of Moonlight program. I like little touches like that. The End?

[Holy_Diver]

^I think there might even be some value in having Dias reborn (and redeemed) as a PC in IX. Somehow the dragons could revive him and Aleph (in a desperate attempt to avoid their fates) so that Dias wields the Moonlight and Aleph the Dark Slayer in the final throw down.

I reckon that could even take place in the Coliseum of Melanat like in KF2. KF2 being the best of the original games it seems fitting to end things with a nod to it. It also seems like Dias should get to be a PC, and there is only one game left.

After the fight Dias could keep traveling the world until the Moonlight runs out of light, and end up in the Eastern kingdom, dying there buried with the Moonlight. His adventures traveling with the Moonlight could be games to be made on the side.

Maybe Aleph could hookup with Milia or something. Doesn't seem like he'd need to die in the Coliseum, and that would humanize Milia in the end. Maybe suggesting that even she is becoming devoid of magical qualities along with the rest of the world.

Still I think ultimately Milia would stay close to the surviving vampires. Would be a shame to just die off as human, though I can see why people would argue for that (wanna be a real girl) ending... but personally its more interesting to buck the cliche if you ask me. Maybe Aleph clings to biggest piece of the Dark Slayer connected to the hilt, and becomes a leader among the vampires.

I intend to draw up outlines here in a bit. 9 games seems like enough to me. Better to work on making them better (until the end of time) than going the Final Fantasy route of diminishing returns.

[Verdite]

Just like to ask, you've not mentioned Merlin, will you be adding him in? Im not sure why 'Merlin' is involved maybe the story writer thought the name was interesting, not knowing that the name Merlin is almost always associated with legends of King Arthur.

[HwitVlf]

I have heard from reliable sources that the KF2 and 3 stories did not originate at Fromsoft. The Japanese made a rather heavy handed attempt to adapt the stories in order to plug them into KF1, but From didn't really didn't care about story as they are a studio of programmers more than artists. ‎ 

You seem to be looking for a finely crafted contiguous plot line between the trilogy, but it simply doesn't exist. The KF plots really just throw together enough loosely related points to justify gameplay scenarios, and leave the rest to be filled in by the player. They even changed the story in the KF1 remake that came with SoM and tried to make it work better with the plot of the later KFs.

In KF1 the premise was The Forest Dragon was a benevolent creature who stepped in to save mankind when needed. The Moonlight Sword was his creation given to his chosen warriors who fought for mankind. Myria was his servant.

In KF2 Jap, they changed it to: the Forest Dragon was a spiritual shadow of Guyra. Guyra actually lived in another dimension and was unable to break into the human world. He crafted the Moonlight Sword and other powerful artifacts (like the forest armor) to attract powerful warriors to himself in hopes to find one worthy to possess and thus jump into the human world. Myria was one of the faeries; they were created by him to serve and spy while he was trapped in the other dimension. The fairy released from the stone was of the same strain as Myria. Dias was one of the warriors attracted to Guyra by promises of power, but was just his dupe in that Guyra's only interest was in finding the most powerful body to possess. Guyra wanted the Moonlight sword back in order to lure more powerful warriors to him. ‎  It was the Kraken who sank Alfred's ship. The ones on the shore were babies but adults were huge. As I was saying, "demon" is a bad translation trend started in the early days of Japanglish game/anime imports. The monsters that accompanied the dragons and the Evil King (in KF1) were creatures from other dimensions who came through the "Doors to Darkness" that were opened by the villains activities.

By KF3, the Jap and US plots were mostly synchronized. Seath turns out to be just as usurious as Guyra and possesses King John for the same reason Guyra wanted to possess a human- to break out of his dimensions and into the human world.

[HwitVlf]

Just like to ask, you've not mentioned Merlin, will you be adding him in? Im not sure why 'Merlin' is involved maybe the story writer thought the name was interesting, not knowing that the name Merlin is almost always associated with legends of King Arthur.

I think Merlin was just an alternate translation for "Merril Ur". The limitations of Japanese make it almost impossible to accurately transcribe most Western names. It's usually just a matter of guessing what name was meant, especially when there isn't an existing spelling convention for a common name. Literally, the name Merril Ur is Meruleuru or Meluleulu- It's anybody guess what name was actually meant.

[Holy_Diver]

Just like to ask, you've not mentioned Merlin, will you be adding him in? Im not sure why 'Merlin' is involved maybe the story writer thought the name was interesting, not knowing that the name Merlin is almost always associated with legends of King Arthur.

Is Merlin in one of the Agetec games? I don't think there is anyone named that in From's games. There is a Merlin like character who I don't think ever appears named Orladin, but I could easily be wrong about that.

But now that you mention it. While it was fresh in my head I just drew up a compact for a spinoff series called X (https://en.\<span> site blocked, contact your administrator/wiki/King%27s_Field_Episode_IV:_Epilogue) which features Excalibur per the Frostbite and Firebrand back story. Which I will say flat out just to be clear, I just called it Excalibur for lack of a ‎  better idea, and because I think its cute for the KF universe to have some similarities to human culture. So that it looks a little bit artificial. I wouldn't be opposed to rejiggering the name of Excalibur and "Black Dragon Arthur" but I think the basic concept works well, and Arthur could just be a coincidence if not Excalibur.

But in X it takes place in the same universe of these games, but after magic is just about utterly erased from the universe. So all of the stories in the 9 game cycle would take place before the dawn of history. This is pretty much the same way the Elric saga and spinoffs work, which bear many similarities to KF. X is just an umbrella title for any number of dime store games that play by its basic rules.

Anyway I mention it because it features a literal King Arthur. So it would have Merlin too if you wanted to literally set a game in that period. But it also has a multiverse structure, so in theory Arthur to could be different, or non-existent. The sword Excalibur was regifted to Arthur basically, so it existed first in the KF cycle. Presumably the lady of the lake would be Milia or Elfos depending on how you wanted to play it if you really wanted to go there.


Disclaimer: I want to stress by the way, that I am just picking up the ball and running with it. I am committed to working on the game play mechanics I want to see implemented. But if you can make a better story, by all means do so. I won't get in the way. Its literally whoever wants it the most, and to be honest I really don't want it, but I know better than to not strike while the iron is hot. And someone has to do these things I reckon.

EDITED: And just to be clear, I am not challenging anyone to make a better sequence of events from scratch, though you can do that too. You are welcome, no encouraged, to walk all over anything presented here. In short I'd definitely prefer to see people just reworking these ideas, since they are my ideas, and I've never had an idea I don't like. But I will bow before you too if you can pull something better out of thin air.

[Holy_Diver]

I have heard from reliable sources that the KF2 and 3 stories did not originate at Fromsoft. The Japanese made a rather heavy handed attempt to adapt the stories in order to plug them into KF1, but From didn't really didn't care about story as they are a studio of programmers more than artists.

I'm just a programmer too. That doesn't mean I can't craft a half decent story. Most anyone can make a better story than your standard video game fair. That said unless the story was first published as a light novel series or something, this seems unlikely to me. Unless there was a never released book series, because it was considered unfit for print.

Also From Software's games are always cryptic and noncommittal (at least up to here recently) this way when it comes to story. I am not so quick to dismiss them as you are.

You seem to be looking for a finely crafted contiguous plot line between the trilogy, but it simply doesn't exist.

I don't know if exists or not. If it doesn't then we'll have to make one. Assuming other people wanting to make KF games with SOM would like to have a coherent universe to play in. If not everyone can just make games without any respect for any other games, but part of me thinks that is not treating players fairly, and another part of me is certain that coherent games will be much better received by the public, and that will cast SOM in a better light.

Most of the story in the KF trilogy is told through histories and hearsay if not down right treachery. That part doesn't need and probably should not be coherent. But the underlying events should make an attempt to be coherent, or otherwise games should not pretend to do any more than borrow the KF esthetic the way Final Fantasy games have an overarching esthetic. That said at the very least if you make games with a direct continuity, like KF1~3 you owe it to the player to get things to agree. Especially since we hope that you continue to maintain your games after the initial release. You might like that games are like little jewels, but I prefer that authors have a sense of responsibility, and continue to improve and maintain the games so that future generations can enjoy even better games. Bottom line to me is its a shame to throw out a good idea just because the first run came out a little bit off. I expect this will be second nature for amateur game makers, because the first run is always going to be weak sauce.

EDITED: An I think its one advantage we have over the traditional publishing model, as long as traditional publishing remains a viable business model. So we may as well take advantage of it.

The KF plots really just throw together enough loosely related points to justify gameplay scenarios, and leave the rest to be filled in by the player. They even changed the story in the KF1 remake that came with SoM and tried to make it work better with the plot of the later KFs.

I wouldn't be surprised if the people working on it just couldn't remember or didn't do the best job. Companies have a way of shedding their historical memory. But that's beside the point. I am all for evolution. Even if its random mutation (aka. evolution)

In KF1 the premise was The Forest Dragon was a benevolent creature who stepped in to save mankind when needed. The Moonlight Sword was his creation given to his chosen warriors who fought for mankind. Myria was his servant.

In KF2 Jap, they changed it to: the Forest Dragon was a spiritual shadow of Guyra. Guyra actually lived in another dimension and was unable to break into the human world.

By spiritual do you mean the good half of Guyra? Otherwise your synopsis is close enough to my understanding. But my understanding is largely just based on things that I've heard over the years. Everything just blends together more or less. I hope after the trilogy is methodically converted over to SOM format that process will lay bear all of its minutia so that we can look at it more like biblical scholars with cold hard evidence to cite.

That said it can only inform any attempt to refactor everything. My hope is plain and simple to craft a compelling cycle of three trilogies that will get the public really excited like Harry Potter or something. I'd change things radically if it seemed like it would help.

That said we at least owe it to From to name drop some stuff here and there. My view of it is KF looks like its dead. We have a KF Making Tool. So lets make some KF. And lets make it a game changing event.


EDITED: Also, thanks for the synopsis.

[HwitVlf]

I'm just a programmer too. That doesn't mean I can't craft a half decent story.
...
By spiritual do you mean the good half of Guyra?

I'm sure some programmers can write good stories. My "programmer" remark was a quote of how it was phrased to me. I took it to mean that Fromsoft didn't have an art department setup to handle story creation, but instead it was "tacked on" as a sideline of the programming team who weren't especially concerned with art development. But you can interpret the quote as you like. ‎ 

I don't honestly remember the exact phrase used for the "Guyra spirit shadow" blurb, but I think it was the same phrase I translated as "astral projection" in KFJ where it was used to describe the indestructible Dark Magician look alike. It could also mean "spiritual shadow". I think they just mean an illusion generated from their mind, like a hologram projected from a remote location.
‎ 

[Holy_Diver]

My position is pretty simple. I'd just like King's Field to be a household name in the coming decades. Doesn't mean everyone has to play it, but I'd like it if everyone in the developed world knows what it is, or can say, yeah I've heard of that.

That doesn't mean dumbing it down to me. But it does mean it will need to be tightly packaged in at least one variety. I am all for people doing experimental stuff with it, but at least one version needs to look mainstream going forward. Maybe after it is established more complex treatments can be done from the ground up. But when I think about designing video games, I think it needs to have some elements that are familiar to people who've been playing games for the last few decades, and there is just something about video games that is not congruent with books. If you try to make a game that is like a book it won't work period. Something about it is just intrinsically more kitsch. That's why you really don't need an art dept...

But From must have had an art department. Who would make all of the beautiful artwork? And artists are creative types. I just can't imagine an investment of such magnitude being blundered through. In fact I think someone at From during the early days must have had powerful creative foresight. Because its the only studio that has really weathered the decades, and almost nothing was comparable even in its day.

Maybe its over thinking things that poisons game stories and narrative. Maybe KF works so well because no one wanted to commit to anything. But the twists to me are there for a reason. Even if they are decisions that were not made in advance. Twists have shock value, and make you reevaluate everything. That's one of the real strengths of the games. Even if I really don't know what is going on precisely. It's obvious that if it wasn't so unpredictable, that wouldn't be a problem.


PS: Astral projection is what I took you to mean. But I just wanted to be sure we are on the same page. The dragon in the SOM remake really doesn't look like Guyra, and is even much more kid friendly than the black dragon model in the original game. But I think part of the decision there was just that a Guyra monster wasn't going to be part of the package, so a more generic dragon was used, so that it would be more useful to people making different kinds of games.

I really like the idea of slowly but surely revolving the story around Milia. She seems like the character that's seen it all. So bringing the series full circle with a reveal that she is the Dragon of the Forest works I think. Plus it has a pseudo feminist appeal, and a hey you thought it would be a guy didn't you! Or at least a recognition that overtime a mysterious woman would obviously metamorphose into a man in the historical record is one of those nice touches that you only get in KF games. ‎  And then there is always, what's more obvious than Milia giving the player access to the final armor, than if it were originally her armor. That's a no brainer.

But I only mention Milia because I like the idea of her ability to produce these "astral projection" puppets. Maybe they are the real things, I dunno. I think there is value in them being mere illusions, but also the idea of her summoning Guyra to fight along side her is impressive too. That would seem less impressive if it really wasn't Guyra. But I am torn because in the story parts, where Milia appears alongside Guyra, I really like the idea that its simply Milia talking for Guyra, and he trusts her to be loyal, and he gave her (by creating her in those vats) the ability to do that just so she could play that role for him.

Anyway, if you played a game as Milia seeing the events throughout a long life. I can't think of any way to let a second player tag along in that, unless the second player got to control the monsters and stuff that she could summon as a special ability. Also player 1 could switch between who controls what, so AI would takeover Milia, unless she was sitting down or something.

It seems kind of wrong to make KF a two player series. Potentially even more. But I think playing together is important. Especially for children growing up in a home together. And it would be a good thing to develop that technology, and there's not better way to showcase it than in a KF flagship project.