The Evolution of Sword of Moonlight

[Hguols]

So, I haven't started a thread in a while... ‎  but I'd like to talk about something.

Now, I'm sure you're all looking at the thread title with the evolution of the program itself in mind, but I'd like to talk about (perhaps even challenge) the evolution of the SoM game creation, and taking a step backward to move forward.

Let me explain, but first, a preface.
Please keep in mind, the ideas I'm about to present aren't directed toward anyone and are not intended to step on any toes. ‎  This (intention) is for the growth of the community here and a perspective on origin and what this has-been-use-to-could (me) thinks our purpose here is really all about.

Having been on the board since its birth, (when I used to walk here in the snow for 10 miles uphill both ways) I've noticed how many threads based on topic went from creating games with Sword of Moonlight, to creating model pieces for Sword of Moonlight.

Nothing wrong with that. ‎  Its great and is keeping SoM alive, for which I'm grateful.

I think, as a community, we're losing sight (even if its just a little bit) of one major concept of Sword of Moonlight, and that is making a game with Sword of Moonlight.

Having been elsewhere for a while, (almost to the point of an outsider looking in), I can't help but metaphorically compare what's going on from recent posts to tattoos/tattooing. ‎  See, years ago, tattoos (in my area) weren't that common. ‎  Then over the years I started seeing more and more of them. ‎  Now, its common to see people COVERED in body art. ‎  There's nothing wrong with that.... ‎ 

...but if you have a room full of people covered in body art and one person in the room with no tattoos, who looks more "unique and/or innovative" from an outsider looking in? ‎  (which is ironic because a lot of people tattoo with some element of uniqueness in mind)

Same with a bulletin board covered in red, green, blue, etc. colored flyers, a single plain white flyer with them will actually catch the eye of a passerby more.

I think the same applies here with Sword of Moonlight. ‎  I've seen the occasional model/texture/mod/etc. turn into COVERED in model/texture/mod/etc., which is awesome, don't get me wrong. ‎ 
....but....
With so much emphasis on textures, models, animations, additions, etc. - I believe someone would actually really be moving the SoM (what's the word) "spirit" forward if they just made a game, even with the default SoM workings.

In closing, I'd like to present a challenge (well, it doesn't have to be a challenge) with incentives.
By the end of the year, I'd like to see someone (or multiple someone(s)) create a quality Sword of Moonlight game - just from the basic install.
You can be as innovative as you want with the game's engine and textures. ‎  This doesn't have to be Skyrim epic - think King's Field epic. ‎  (That makes sense, doesn't it?) ‎ 

If you want a soundtrack from me for the game? ‎  You've got it on my time. ‎  That offer is still on the table if 10 of you decide to make games.
I can give out some gifts of my craft for incentives - heck, I might even part way with some cash, just because.

Questions? ‎  Comments? ‎  Snide remarks? ‎ 

Thank you for your time,

[Verdite]

When I started working with SOM I enjoyed using the tools to customise my project, and after a while I became dedicated to creating something unique from my own imagination. SOM was the best place to start for me, and the smaller community was actually more encouraging than a larger community.

With that in mind, my scope was and still is to bring a unique kings field experience to people, not only to promote SOM and allow the community more assets to enjoy, but to also do what I have always wanted to do - project my imagination and art form, which I couldnt do through writing or drawings alone.

After 3 years of working on my project, various "SOM enthusiasts" encouraged me to keep my own style, but try to keep the artwork similar to SOMs artwork. Its been damn tough keeping on track when you are a 1 man team, relying on snippets of advice as a framework, then filling in the blanks yourself.

Sadly this also means that I cant satisfy peoples desire to play a SOM game, because of the amount of hours I have put in and still have to put in...
But it did happen that my project encouraged people to start their own projects, because creating something entirely custom seemed very unlikely given the time and effort someone would need to give in order to create.

While you do raise alot of valid points, I think SOM has gone from being a From Software release to a community based enterprise... When I look at the tools that came with SOM it seems inevitable that people would expand on the original game. Maybe From didnt expect it to become community based, and rather predicted it to be kept within friends of the consumer who bought SOM.

To have maintained the community is something we can all be proud of - John has spent alot of time keeping things above water here, and thats something.

[Hguols]

After 3 years of working on my project, various "SOM enthusiasts" encouraged me to keep my own style, but try to keep the artwork similar to SOMs artwork. Its been damn tough keeping on track when you are a 1 man team, relying on snippets of advice as a framework, then filling in the blanks yourself.

Damn tough is right - if it took 3 years for me to make something, it wouldn't get done. ‎ 
I applaud your drive and devotion.

I made Diadem of Maunstraut in 2 months. Trismegistus in 6 months. ‎  The Field of Kings in 5 months. ‎  ...and this is just one opinion of a has-been on the board, but SoM is essentially a tool to make bird houses. ‎  It seems like most people here (correct me if I'm wrong) have taken the approach of taking an extra however-many months to formulate (and create) extra supplies so they can try to make a bird condominium out of a tool that's intended to make bird houses.

The point of my thread is "back to the basics". ‎  You're absolutely right that SoM has grown into something beyond From Software - I think its even done so in the absense of custom models and pieces. ‎  Once again, not to step on anyone's toes with my opinion, but I myself would rather see some more completed birdhouses than so many bird condominiums under construction. ‎  (I also have a theory that some games were abandoned because their condo got wobbly because they were trying to use a house-maker to make it)

Can you imagine where we would be at right now if it took me 3 years to make Diadem of Maunstraut?
Can you imagine where we would be at right now if there were 5 more completed QUALITY games made from the original SoM template(s)?

You're right about John.

If John wouldn't have taken the initiative to translate the game, none of us would be here.
If Todd wouldn't have taken the initiative to register the domain name, none of us would be here.
If I wouldn't have taken the initiative to create the first US released game or give a copy of SoM to Todd (with his promise to make a game with it), John would have done it. ‎ 

[Verdite]

Agreed, it would be nice to see, but the best thing about SOM is having the ability to choose the stock assets or create a game using what you've been given. I wanted to mix custom with template but it didnt work so well.

"Can you imagine where we would be at right now if there were 5 more completed QUALITY games made from the original SoM template(s)?"

Im not too sure. I think that using the templates would cater for the KF fanbase alot, wheras we wouldnt be drawing in gamers or game makers who prefer high res games. John has created the ability to increase the texture resolution which we can apply to the original templates, but without the original high res textures we would have to make the high-res textures from scratch.

Dont get me wrong - I think we have some great games here in terms of story and quality and they alone would drive some peoples desire to create new games. ‎ 
Essentially we have all had our parts to play in improving the community, and the community will grow in various ways thanks to our efforts - its whether anyone else is willing to give up their spare time after we retire ‎ 

[Hguols]

I wanted to mix custom with template but it didnt work so well.

I can honestly say, that's not a problem I experienced until The Field of Kings, where I used custom pieces. ‎  (thank you again sir for making my game beautiful)

I was able to finish my game (using a different engine) but I can't even create a simple SoM runtime with the custom pieces. ‎  (which, I raise an eyebrow to all the added stuff I used vs. the non-added where I could create a runtime without issue)

Was this the problem you had?

I think that using the templates would cater for the KF fanbase alot, wheras we wouldnt be drawing in gamers or game makers who prefer high res games. John has created the ability to increase the texture resolution which we can apply to the original templates, but without the original high res textures we would have to make the high-res textures from scratch.

SoM will never compete with the now available (freeware) PC games out there today, technologically speaking. ‎  You might be able to match texture and resolution, but the engine wreaks of the mid nineties and runs like it too. ‎  (which, is mighty fine era if you ask this King's Field fan)

My recommendation? ‎  Switching mediums.

My vision (should I have time to research it as I won't have the ability to develop it) involves:

a iPhone/Android Windows 98 emulator
a SoM.exe game
a .bat type file to seamlessly load the game without interfacing with the OS emulator and create reasonable "keystrokes"?

Voila. ‎  Awesome handheld game with technology that DOES rival other handheld games on the market. ‎ 

Essentially we have all had our parts to play in improving the community, and the community will grow in various ways thanks to our efforts - its whether anyone else is willing to give up their spare time after we retire ‎ 

I might be very guilty of overlooking the fact that I see more textures/mods/add-ons made than SoM games made, because there are more ‎  textures/mods/add-on makers than game makers here. ‎  ....by trade. ‎ 

I think as long as someone has the interest and capacity for this genre of digital hobby, we've got a chance. ‎  If people are still making NES games/mods, I'd say we've definitely got a chance.

[Verdite]

"I can honestly say, that's not a problem I experienced until The Field of Kings, where I used custom pieces. ‎  (thank you again sir for making my game beautiful)"

Very welcome. Sadly, alot of the work I gave you used photo textures which is something I scrapped a while ago. I draw everything now.

"I was able to finish my game (using a different engine) but I can't even create a simple SoM runtime with the custom pieces. ‎  (which, I raise an eyebrow to all the added stuff I used vs. the non-added where I could create a runtime without issue)

Was this the problem you had?"

No, actually my main problem was intergrating my old pieces with the existing artwork, basically I taught myself the process of creating assets similar to SOM through trial and error. Mostly ... Error. I stayed determined, though. SOM has a beautiful exisiting set of artwork and I would not claim that my work is better, but other forum members say im definately on the right track.

"I might be very guilty of overlooking the fact that I see more textures/mods/add-ons made than SoM games made, because there are more ‎  textures/mods/add-on makers than game makers here. ‎  ....by trade. ‎  "

At first it might seem like alot of the work done in the customs field is somewhat demeaning towards SOMs existing assets, when in fact the basis of it is to create a framework or replicas similar to KF and SOM, so in essence it is still SOM. Anyone developing here likely has played and loved KF so I think in terms of 'essence' we are moving ahead nicely.

I recall you mentioning a while ago and recently that you didnt have anything more to make SOM games with, and with all due respect im pretty sure that when the plentiful addons from the custom games are available to all, you'l probably be inspired to create something finely polished again. Could inspire alot of folk.

"I think as long as someone has the interest and capacity for this genre of digital hobby, we've got a chance. ‎  If people are still making NES games/mods, I'd say we've definitely got a chance."

Some people love to keep certain games alive, and thanks to them I have played some great classics both on the DOS and numerous other long dated platforms, which could have been easily abandoned. If we love KF that much we'l be here. ‎ 

[HwitVlf]

I find this topic interesting; I think it highlights a big issue in fan made games.

It seems like people who want to make their own game are driven by an artistic vision which they're trying to bring to life. Using pre-made parts works against that since pre-mades aren't likely to match their vision, and if the pre-mades have been used before, they could make a game feel less "unique".

I think those points are valid, but successfully making a game requires compromise between artistic vision and the reality of how hard it is to make a totally unique game. Few people will have the determination Ben has had. ‎  So I think an essential part of the development process is learning how to balance the drive to achieve artistic vision with the need to keep things progressing to completion in a timely fashion.

Even among professional developers, there are so many stories where they try to accomplish too much, fall behind on development schedule, and end up either releasing the game unfinished, or the project goes belly-up altogether.

I would say every "game maker" engine is mostly a tool for "making birdhouses"- simply because "push-button" game design limits choices. But the upside is that they are far easier to use than full featured engines. I think SoM could be 'elevated' to making more complex or varied games. But, the more complex SoM gets, the more it becomes a pale clone of other engines that are already on the market. The improvements that Mick has made to SoM's gameplay haven't done much to make the creation process easier. So unless you're an iron-man like Ben, I have to agree that it is more suited to making birdhouses.

[Hguols]

Awesome post John. :)

I completely agree that game-maker tools are for the laymen. With that comes a level of simplicity, which does limit choices as you said.

However limited, I think there are still a massive amount of variables that can be used to make a very innovative game. Likewise, made from scratch isn't going to reinvent the wheel anymore.

Not without better equipment, education... funding...

I think its debatable which would take more creative, innovative efforts. Making an innovative birdhouse design from scratch? ...or making an innovative birdhouse design only using X number of pieces / this tool.

It might be a matter of opinion, but I'd rather see more of the latter, specifically because I think it would take an extra special something to make a game like that didn't seem like it was cookie cut from someone else's doings.

[dmpdesign]

If I may pipe up and add 2 cents, I think every person that uses the tool will handle it differently, regardless of whether they use the default or customize.

Tom - you have to realize your ability to churn out a game quickly is an unusual skill - my game used probably 60% stock parts and it still took me forever...and I knew exactly how I wanted it built from the get go.

Your games are wonderful, and I believe Diadem of Maunstraut for certain is far from a birdhouse - you my friend completed a perfect full fledged RPG wonder - if it had been released around 1996 instead of KF2 people would have been clawing at it and paying high dollar. ‎  Start to finish, its quite simply a perfect SOM title, and the poster child of what could be done with the toolset (hence why I made and kept that promise to you - it was beyond inspiring!)

Here is the kicker though, you had in mind a game that looked like KF - so using the assets were perfect for you. ‎  The folks currently building SOM games have completely different style games in mind, but access to the wonderful SOM editor with its great community of knowledge. ‎  Believe me when I say I understand you, I would love to have a new SOM made game to play through every few months to a year, but it just won't happen from me willing it. ‎  The folks working on games are satisfied to commit their time to every detail to make the game 100% their own, and we will just have to wait and enjoy it when its done. ‎  Some painters take years to make a masterpiece, and then some are like Bob Ross, grabbing their happy brush and just knocking out something amazing in half an hour for the camera...everyone has a different level of speed, detail and scope.

I think you truly need to look back at your games and give yourself more credit. ‎  What you put into DoM and Tri are well beyond the time you somehow knocked them out in. ‎  You are a wizard to say the least and to this day still have the most played SOM made game there is...thats an awesome achievement!

Anyhow, I hope someone does take you up on the challenge - I would love to see a 3 month game from ANYONE just so I can get a new SOM fix before the new years.

[Holy_Diver]

I think its debatable which would take more creative, innovative efforts. Making an innovative birdhouse design from scratch? ...or making an innovative birdhouse design only using X number of pieces / this tool.

It might be a matter of opinion, but I'd rather see more of the latter, specifically because I think it would take an extra special something to make a game like that didn't seem like it was cookie cut from someone else's doings.

You've demonstrated the latter. Well not in terms of effort, but in terms of results. At any rate, the former is how games are currently being produced, and the results speak for themselves. Whereas in the case of the latter, I've seen time and time again just about anyone can make a competent game given this strategy. I can't wait until a million games are made this way every year to see what kind of product and talent rises to the top of that pile.


EDITED: Upon rereading this post, I am inspired to say... as the adage goes give people enough rope and they will inevitably hang themselves... provided they do not possess the wisdom to refuse the rope, it happens every time.

At its best SOM and any product like SOM is a straightjacket. Every feature made available to users needs to be defined in terms of limitations, not opportunities. In other words. The end-game is filing would-be artists down a straight and narrow path (not birdhouses)