Other Map Creator use with SoM

[AsusX2]

I'm was working with a friend of mine who knows olot more about software than I do, I'm the wise one. He's the intelligent one, (4 degrees from M.I.T.) . So i asked him if he would look at
a project of mine, SoM, but when he looked at it he started looking at the programming of it not my map, GeeZ i just wanted some advice on the map not how to fix the game. Anyhow he thinks he might be able to Alter another map editor to work with SoM. he's comming back tomorrow to work with me again. I have my doubts but i'll see what he comes up with. I would like to build 3D maps instead of 2D because most of my ideas are severly limited by this editor but i wont give up on Kings Field EVER, and I will finish this game. it takes about a week and a half for me to do a level. Let me know if you have any ideas about this. (Like if somebody has already tried this. Thanks.

P.S. I'm going to look at the controller issues myself Grrrrr.

[Holy_Diver]

Well SOM works by tiling 3D pieces over a 2D grid, and this way of working is limited by SOM itself, not the map editor. So if you can't live with that, changing to a different process would have to mean abandoning SOM altogether. SOM is both a a novelty and a license to legitimately print KF games, as well as a great collection of assets. When I started working with SOM I thought the 2D tile thing was the most hampering idea for a DirectX game. It's really a throwback to KF1. However once I started using it, the tiling thought process began to grow on me, and I started to appreciate it for both the reuse-ability and intellectual constraint. That said, a future version of SOM could definitely use the concept of many layered maps, but the basic premise is still solid I think.

You just have to be creative about structuring your world. It's not really 2D... it's more like 2.5D because you get to play with the elevation. One of the most fun aspects of SOM I find is play with optical illusions. I'm constantly setting up optical illusions which rely on the fact I know where the player can and cannot get to and the vantage points from there. It's just a novel way of going about things, and also reminds you that not everything need be technically modeled in a VR space.

If you (4 degrees from M.I.T.) friend really did analyze SOM itself in a substantial way, he may have decompiled it. If he knows of a way to decompile it, then we'd like to have the decompiler output for our own purposes.

I can make a new map editor that welds pieces on the fly to create unique multi-level pieces to be reused by the final build. I can rebuild SOM from scratch to use the same concepts but have a completely free multilayer and map welding system builtin, but this latter option would not be really be backwards compatible with the original SOM... or at least it would violate the essence of the original to make it so I think.

[AsusX2]

Good point, Had'nt thought of that. But I was thinking of making multi tier'ed map components such as a corridor with a corridor crossways above it like the castle components. I.E. one corridor facing x and one facing y. Is this possible? I am going to try it but i might need help with the collision. and if you would like I will ask him for whatever he would use to decompile the data. like i said as far as the stuff he does alot of it is above me. Waaay above me. i'm just very creative with a good dose of stubborn. I just cant give up on anything.by hook or by crook I will do it.
P.s. I will never give up on SoM, I just want to help improove it in any way I can. so Sorry I really did not mean to offend. You guy's are about the only people I like to talk with. It's the only reason I made an eMail acct.

[Holy_Diver]

Well I looked into decompiling the exe (which should be very simple by exe standards) and there were no tools really up to the task. Without decompiling the exe there is no way to make credible statements about "the programming" as you suggest. You could profile it a number of ways, but what for I'm not sure. I was being a bit facetious I suppose

About an underpass as you suggest (I think) you'd have to make a custom map piece. I think I saw something like this in one of the Japanese games. Can't remember the name exactly. Todd might want to look into taking some of the pieces in those games and converting them into project compatible pieces if possible?? Todd knows more about SOM specific sorts of stuff than I do in many depts (he has more patience I would wager)

Tom does stuff like this using floating magic pedestals but that's really not always the sort of thing you want. It works to the same effect however if you want to get the player from A to B.

I can program whirlwinds around SOM. I can extend it to do just about anything I want from where I'm sitting. But I don't want to make it do anything that would take away from it's essence. Basically I just add stuff that should've/could've been there in the first place.

[HwitVlf]

Making an easier way to design multi level maps could be a very good thing. SoM maps are already fully 3D and there are multi-level map Pieces that come with SoM (Piece #103 etc) and there is the multi-level 'castle building' set I made. The multi-layer Pieces aren't necessarily user friendly though. The main problem is that event triggers are like a column that goes all the way up and down- so events on a lower level will trigger when the player is on the upper floors etc. It's easy to work around this problem by turning events that are on other layers off until the player is on the correct level.

I had the idea to make a simple program that could take a 100x100 Piece sized 3d model (in a common format like 3DS) and automatically cut it into SoM map Piece sized squares- then lastly it would auto-generate a map file that had all the cut Pieces placed consecutively. That would let builders move away from the blocky Pieces that come with SoM and easily make flowing, complex ground layer environments.

[Holy_Diver]

^Except 100x100=10,000 pieces, so you'd have to be a lot cleverer than that I'm afraid


PS: I could not find a single combination for the "multi-level" piece that fits (might be 103, might not) ...I don't think you can walk under it?? Oh, that 103. I wouldn't really call that "multi-level" in the sense I think Asus is requesting. Mult-layer might be a better term for what I think Asus is wanting.

[AsusX2]

If you center the events around a 1.0x1.0 aria. than how would it affect you if the event was on, say, z level 1.0 and you walked thru a position located at z level 5.5?

[HwitVlf]

If you center the events around a 1.0x1.0 aria. than how would it affect you if the event was on, say, z level 1.0 and you walked thru a position located at z level 5.5?

Event triggers only continue straight up and down (along the Y axis) so a 1.0x1.0 trigger (that's 1.0X by 1.0Z) will trigger at any Y coordinate above or below that 1.0X by 1.0Z square. However, you can manipulate the 'trigger conditions' to prevent the event from triggering unless the player is on the correct floor. If your friend comes up with anything that helps with maps at all it would be great! Keep us updated :)

^Except 100x100=10,000 pieces, so you'd have to be a lot cleverer than that I'm afraid

Well, one of us has to be a lot more clever. . . I'll grant you that [Insert 'Angel' emoticon here].
The 1000~ Piece limitation doesn't apply to the Map Editor and map Pieces don't have to be 1x1 in the output map model you know. Think BIG!

[dmpdesign]

I had thought about making an entirely custom map with a full 3D environment yadda yadda but there are still too many things that can't be gotten around in SOM for it to be worthwhile to me. ‎  Yes you can possibly get around the event 'column' issue by turning events off unless youre on the right floor, but you can't get around the switches, chests and inspectable objects when you are standing above or below them. ‎  Then there is the SOM lighting issue which is a huge pain in that it lights the map tile at the 0.0 Y coordinate..so if you build say a 3 floor map tile that has the surface outside as the top floor and two underground passages below it, and then apply some ambient lighting..the subterranean floor will get the lighting applied to it and the others will look weird.

I am not against anyone trying to do it, in fact I would like to see what people could come up with, but I really think the results will always prove dissappointing or terribly frustrating.

Just fyi I have dabbled in map tiles that span a 3x3 square (6 x 6 meters) and they work fine without having dissappearing objects. ‎  The only real pain in the ass with such a large map tile is object placement on the blank map slots you have to populate the other surrouding 8 pieces with. ‎  Other than the tiles immediately touching the one in the center where you place the main map piece itself, its a wild guess where things need to go on the completely blank ones.

Another warning for folks who are going to create custo map pieces...as I have some experience here. Building your map pieces with an advanced modeller is going to leave you banging your head against the wall due to the way SOM uses your collision files. ‎  The .mhm files are extremely picky and troubleshooting them is not entirely intuitive. ‎  If you are going to try to create an .mhm file from your highly detailed 3D map piece file then expect alot of problems with walking through walls, getting stuck on the floor where there is no step up and even warping players to different map pieces for no explainable reason.

In my opinion, the project of making an entirely custom map is just impossible....but hey, I challenge anyone to prove me wrong!

[Holy_Diver]

I have no clue what you guys mean by not using 1x1 pieces?? Do you know of some way to make literal map pieces bigger than the ones that come with SOM? Or are you talking about using "objects" instead, like the 3x3 water tiles??

As for collision models, I would think you'd want as advanced a modeler as possible. I sometimes have to program my own modelers to do what I need to do. But yea, collision models are never a detailed the model itself... and if so some kind of LOD should be employed, unless you're going for an extreme simulation. Another thing to keep in consideration is the SOM map piece lighting model.