Using real words correctly is not "computer geek terminology". There are words that scientists and professionals use which you will find in a modern dictionary. And there are words which are just abstract pseudo-words used by a particular product. It is often appropriate to use pseudo-words, especially for novel or complicated concepts. But there is nothing novel or complicated about SOM.
RPG Maker was a product marketed for children. Like Mario Paint. I think people who are interested in SOM are going to be aspiring software developers like Todd. It's a disservice to them to feed them a bunch of candy words that won't help them along in their careers. Like I said, I mostly have a problem when words are used incorrectly, because A) it looks real bad and makes the community look more amateurish than necessary, and B) it's wrong and people exposed to it will have wrong ideas associated with words.
I would prefer everyone to be on the same footing. And when I remake SOM I'd prefer it be identical in terminology to your translation. Even when I program a wrapper application to launch SOM, the tools will appear to be a part of that product, so a new translation will probably be prudent sooner than later. And I'll do it by myself if I must.
I guess what we should do then is make a list of the "terms" for each screen and list the possible alternative. I'm hoping to get some time in tonight to work on my game thanks to DMP so if I do I'll start making a list for the screens I use tonight. Will that help? Is so, what format do you want it in?
(2009-10-28, 08:54 PM)lavaelf1024 link Wrote: I guess what we should do then is make a list of the "terms" for each screen and list the possible alternative. I'm hoping to get some time in tonight to work on my game thanks to DMP so if I do I'll start making a list for the screens I use tonight. Will that help? Is so, what format do you want it in?
Someone has maybe done this already (namely John -- probably on his website)
We will need a list of terms for a .po file when we go to translate it anyway. So it wouldn't hurt to have such a list. You might even save some time and format it in .po format.
PPS: I'm not sure that's the kanji SOM uses for save, but probably.
EDITED: Even though the SOM "tool" apps are really more in question here. I could use a file like this that works with the game text during the next few weeks. So it would be an immediate help if someone could maybe do that. The tools will be trickier to translate this way. But very soon I'll have a system for translating your games into any language just by editing the "msgstr" lines in such file.
Interesting, I thought SOM was great the way it is, terminology and all. I have seen a lot of people talk a lot about making games, writing programs, and even building developer tools - but very few people actually do it. If most people don't understand SOM the way it is 'my god' they will never make a game anyway, mainly because of all the other aspects of game making involved - (creating digital assets, creating 2D, 3D, audio etc...) Why would anyone want to do a complete REMAKE of SOM is a hilarious waste of time to me, there is no money in it, not even a lot of fun (my opinion)
But, again I felt SOM was great the way it stands right now, COUNTERS meant counters to me (they only could count), TIMERS were timers....etc...honestly you have to be a programmer anyway to understand these commands/functions, and if your not stay away. There are intrinsic limitations to SOM that prohibits a remake, it is seriously limited in graphical power, memory, oh whatever else. Not to mention all the legal issues of doing a 'remake' . I thought SOM was a great way to re-live KingsField and perhaps make a small game to let others see a glimpse of the glory days. So thats precisely what I did.....and it was fun.
P.S. I do agree, that Holy you do bully people on this forum....I think the first day I was on here you called me a hack. :)
(2009-10-29, 04:31 PM)kilroyfx link Wrote: Interesting, I thought SOM was great the way it is, terminology and all.? I have seen a lot of people talk a lot about making games, writing programs, and even building developer tools - but very few people actually do it.? If most people don't understand SOM the way it is 'my god' they will never make a game anyway, mainly because of all the other aspects of game making involved - (creating digital assets, creating 2D, 3D, audio etc...) Why would anyone want to do a complete REMAKE of SOM is a hilarious waste of time to me, there is no money in it, not even a lot of fun (my opinion)
But, again I felt SOM was great the way it stands right now, COUNTERS meant counters to me (they only could count), TIMERS were timers....etc...honestly you have to be a programmer anyway to understand these commands/functions, and if your not stay away. There are intrinsic limitations to SOM that prohibits a remake, it is seriously limited in graphical power, memory, oh whatever else.? Not to mention all the legal issues of doing a 'remake' .? I thought SOM was a great way to re-live KingsField and perhaps make a small game to let others see a glimpse of the glory days. So thats precisely what I did.....and it was fun.
P.S. I do agree, that Holy you do bully people on this forum....I think the first day I was on here you called me a hack. :)
I did not call you a hack, and even if I had that would not be bullying. I might have called you a hacker, because what Todd misunderstood you were doing with SOM via your own words. Being called a hacker is not an insult, it implies skills. Skills which within the domain of computer science tend to be completely divergent from the skills of those who only develop software legitimately. You either misunderstood me, or formed false memories presumably because of a dislike for me. Not my fault or really my problem.
Offtopic, remaking SOM other than working out the file formats would require very little extra energy on my part, and I will be doing it to demo my own software platform(s) ...so to demonstrate how easy it can be. Of course a remake will not suffer from any limitations whatsoever, nor will the remake be simply confined to the constraints of SOM. It will give people a chance to graduate their projects beyond SOM if they choose, since the SOM remake/simulator will be fully upward compatible with the platform it was designed as a demonstration of. The simulator will run on any hardware/environment very efficiently (your SOM games will run at 100x peak performance) in perpetuity. And of course features will be added on demand which are impossible with SOM, and features will be their to unlock SOM's full potential as well.
I don't think people like Todd who've toiled a way for a year or more on a SOM game would consider a remake a "hilarious waste of time". That is really insulting (and constitutes "bullying" also)
(2009-10-29, 08:08 AM)HwitVlf link Wrote: Holydiver, it doesn't sound like you are looking for a consensus as much as trying to bully people into doing it your way.
My college degree is in English and I'll say some things I learned along the way. Dictionaries are 'descriptive' not 'prescriptive'; they simply describe words people are already using, they do NOT comment on the accuracy of those words nor do they limit what words people can use. After all aint aint a word but it's in the dictionary. The sole purpose of language is to convey an idea and any word that does not convey its meaning, is incorrect regardless of what a dictionary says. Most computer terms were coined by quasi-mathematicians, often with poor language skills (Bill Gates comes to mind) and they have simply 'bent', misused and mischosen many words (see obfuscated exe).
I believe you are wrong about SoM (as it currently is) mainly being a stepping stone for aspiring developers; they are more likely to spend their time using tools like Dark Basic or coding their own game engines. Also, the RPG Maker series was not mainly used by children, children don't tend to have the focus to make their own games. The main audience of my translation as well as the RPG Maker series is intelligent game fans who want to do something fun in their spare time.
Of course you can use whatever terms you want in your work and you are free to do a complete retranslation of SoM (I think you'll be amazed how much work it is).? But I really wonder, why not just make a game maker from scratch instead of trying to hammer SoM into a tool that's advanced enough to be useful for aspiring developers?
First off, dictionaries are primarily a resource... you can either find a word in them or not. And secondly I can't think of a single hard computer science term which is not entirely appropriate. Most terms are not new words at all as you suggest. They are very old words given additional meaning (which can be found in a dictionary)
I said RPG Maker "was marketed" to children. Just because you want to make a game does not mean you want to be a programmer. But most of what SOM leaves available to people to do falls loosely into the programming category. Ie. there's no reason not to use appropriate terminology. I never knew you used RPG Maker as a reference. I had assumed you'd looked up translations for the Japanese used by SOM.
I think you're denying a consensus to form by you attitude. We can list off the terms and go over them one by one, but you're attitude is in the way. I respect your work as much as everyone here, but I'm probably unique in being willing to challenge you at the same time. I have the long term best interest of the community in mind, and you have a bad attitude. Some words such as Command vs. Instruction I am fervently opposed to and wouldn't stand for a translation without this change. But in most cases I'd just like to see a discussion be allowed to happen. And if some one has valid alternative to Instruction we could consider that (for example)
You will always find me taking the moral high ground whether you or anyone cares for my presence or not. So let's not make this a personal matter ok
PS: I'm in the process of testing some internationalization code I just cooked up. I'd appreciate it if someone could give me the links to the page where John compiled a lot of the original Japanese terms, and if someone can easily upload an unpatched/edited version of som_db.exe that would save me a bit of trouble
