How is SOM different (or not different) from what people do with PC games (mods)

[Holy_Diver]

There was no room for a question mark in the subject.

I get some very different impressions from people talking about "mods" and I wonder what they are. Could any game with mod tools be called a game development platform? Are mods somehow illegitimate? What makes something a mod and not a game?

Obviously not all games are super mod friendly. And probably mod enthusiasts circumvent official tools provided by developers.

There seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for modding games. I wonder if it detracts from what could be a vibrant scene of DIY game makers. Or if there is no real distinction to be made there. Maybe at the end of the day the only stigma for modders is their attachment to a commercial product with a limited window for support. At least until it is made opensource (which has happened with a number of games, Id always releases its sources.)


Disclaimer: I pose the question because its something I know nothing about. It's probably been ~20yrs since I've messed with anything that looks like modding. Which is probably the last time I really played a PC game for that matter. GoG.com has been having a sell this week. I've purchased a few games, Deus Ex, Witcher 2, and ArmaII (DayZ) with the intention of getting around to playing them. The Witcher team seems like a good group. When the game was on sell for less than 10$ I thought I'd get it just because their press is so good. I think their mod tools are almost a free development platform to boot.

Just yesterday (the next day) this (https://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/vi...cher-2-Mod) came out. It seems like an awfully varied list of features for a "mod". I'd characterize that as a remix. And DayZ is just one big mod. I assume my computers can play these games, but I guess I'll find out sooner or later. I wouldn't be surprised if I end up buying a new computer before I can make time in my schedule to try to play these. Deus Ex recently got a fan expansion too, and I think there are mods to pretty up its graphics. Probably the same way Ex cleans up SOM's.

[Guyra]

Mods are modifications to an existing game, while SoM is a set of game making tools. It's basically as simple as that.

If you took a King's Field game and started changing things about it, that would be a mod. If you use SoM to create something, you're making a brand new game.

Generally, you would need to own the existing game to play a mod. If the mod does not require you to own the existing game, it is most likely illegally including and distributing the files from the original game upon which it is based, since it can not be run without them.

[HwitVlf]

I've read on RPG maker forums that the "bottom fell out" of the game making market years back. I highly suspect that it coincided with it becoming standard practice for companies to release level editors with their games. For a timeline, I think Morrowind was one of the first big games that included a comprehensive editor.

Easily 50% of the PC games I've played recently come with some sort of official editing kit, and popular games usually have quite a few unofficial editing techniques as well. Mods range from a simple texture change in the regular game to completely new addon games. They are still processed through the same engine though, so they come out something like alternate versions of the "mother" game. Our very own Verdite played a art in making an amazing mod for Mount and Blade called Brythenwalda.

Game making and modding definitely tap into the same creative root, but modding has the allure of being attached to the fanbase of the original game. And they can be as big or small as you want while still being playable by working with the original game. Game makers support modding because it expands their games through no effort of their own, and fosters long enduring community chatter about their prduct.

[Holy_Diver]

Mods are modifications to an existing game, while SoM is a set of game making tools. It's basically as simple as that.

If you took a King's Field game and started changing things about it, that would be a mod. If you use SoM to create something, you're making a brand new game.

Generally, you would need to own the existing game to play a mod. If the mod does not require you to own the existing game, it is most likely illegally including and distributing the files from the original game upon which it is based, since it can not be run without them.

Yes. I suppose the official distinction for a "mod" is you must have the original game to use it. SOM lets you make standalone games. But I don't think that will be used very much at some point because standalone games require so much bloat. They make perfect sense on a CD but it would be better I think if the standard way to play a SOM game is to start by installing SOM.

Anyway at that point, the distinction is fuzzier. You can play a standalone game if you really must. But most people might see it as being a mod system for a free game. I think you could install SOM just the data folder without the tools. But the tools probably wouldn't amount to enough to warrant the added complexity.

But yeah, that seems like a good technical answer. But I wonder if there is something to be said about the spirit of the matter.

[Holy_Diver]

I've read on RPG maker forums that the "bottom fell out" of the game making market years back. I highly suspect that it coincided with it becoming standard practice for companies to release level editors with their games. For a timeline, I think Morrowind was one of the first big games that included a comprehensive editor.

Easily 50% of the PC games I've played recently come with some sort of official editing kit, and popular games usually have quite a few unofficial editing techniques as well. Mods range from a simple texture change in the regular game to completely new addon games. They are still processed through the same engine though, so they come out something like alternate versions of the "mother" game. Our very own Verdite played a art in making an amazing mod for Mount and Blade called Brythenwalda.

Game making and modding definitely tap into the same creative root, but modding has the allure of being attached to the fanbase of the original game. And they can be as big or small as you want while still being playable by working with the original game. Game makers support modding because it expands their games through no effort of their own, and fosters long enduring community chatter about their prduct.

Modding has been around since I was a kid. I just haven't followed its development. I disagree though that modding negatively impacted "game making" software. It's just speculation. But modding was there before and was still there after. I think "game making" stopped because it was not commercially viable.

The only way game making could be commercially viable would be to turn it into a mod system. Which is to say the players would have to buy into the commercial product too. You also have weird things like RPG Maker 3 I think, that looks pretty good, lets you make 3D RPGs like SOM more or less, turn/party based RPGs but the esthetic is still quite nice. But it was a PS2 exclusive. And there was no way for mere mortals to share games. So the only person who would get to play these console game making games is the makers themselves and maybe their siblings.

EDITED: I only know about RPG Maker 3 because it recently turned up in the PSN store. And ironically even though there is no official support for sharing games, dedicated fans did find ways to do so with the PS2. But with the PSN it seems more likely that there is no way to do that.

I kind of think the spirit of modding versus game making might have something to do with continued support. Since a mod is attached to a disposable piece of software that is already decided that it will never grow in any fundamental way. But maybe that is just more to do with the way companies approach games as disposable churn...

Which is something I've never been able to figure out. Because when I finish programming something. I feel like. Great! I'll never have to do that again as long as I live. But game companies think, hey, can't wait until we are reinventing this wheel 3yrs down the road.

[HwitVlf]

[quote author=HwitVlf link=topic=689.msg9130#msg9130 date=1371892056]
coincided with it becoming standard practice for companies to release level editors

Modding has been around since I was a kid. I just haven't followed its development. I disagree though that modding negatively impacted "game making" software. It's just speculation. But modding was there before and was still there after. I think "game making" stopped because it was not commercially viable.
[/quote]
I didn't claim mods had a negative effect on game making. I said standard issue mod-making kits have reduced peoples focus on making freestanding homebrew type games. I actually have a significant amount of evidence to support what I'm saying, but I won't take the time to explain. It's not that I am busy. I just have other things to attend to.

As far as the question in your topic: SoM is a mod. The only difference is the label people may slap on it. Plenty of "mods" created totally unique games. And in spite of what you have posted in several places, SoM's user agreement specifically prohibits distribution or reverse engineering of SoM or its components. I'm the one who sent you the ULA text where it said so, so I'm surprised you missed that. The exe's also have built in copy protection and it violates US federal law to bypass that.

Official mod kits often let you remove the entire original game and make something completely new just like SoM. So SoM is a mod and many mod-kits are game making engines if you want to call them that. Such distinctions are just meaningless labels to me. It's like discussing what to call the type of brush you used to paint a picture.

[Holy_Diver]

[quote author=Holy Diver link=topic=689.msg9141#msg9141 date=1371940478]
[quote author=HwitVlf link=topic=689.msg9130#msg9130 date=1371892056]
coincided with it becoming standard practice for companies to release level editors

Modding has been around since I was a kid. I just haven't followed its development. I disagree though that modding negatively impacted "game making" software. It's just speculation. But modding was there before and was still there after. I think "game making" stopped because it was not commercially viable.
[/quote]
I didn't claim mods had a negative effect on game making. I said standard issue mod-making kits have reduced peoples focus on making freestanding homebrew type games. [/quote]

Well I took "bottom fell out" to mean the industry lost interest because they weren't making money. So I gave you reasons why they weren't making money. Namely that there is no way to make money with this kind of a product. The companies that did make these products really didn't think things through. In the case of SOM maybe it was more of a humanitarian gesture, or a bid for immortality, or maybe its makers just thought they'd do one last thing with all of the software they had lying around to see if it wouldn't make more money than was sunk into it. Which would've been only conceivable because the process of making SOM must have been a slapdash port of years of experience making KF games.

I actually have a significant amount of evidence to support what I'm saying, but I won't take the time to explain. It's not that I am busy. I just have other things to attend to.

I agree that mod tools detract from interest in making standalone game tools. Just like sites like sites like Facebook detract from interest in making informative independent websites. That is the major concern expressed in the top post. So it did not occur to me you were making the same point again as if you didn't read the top post.

As far as the question in your topic: SoM is a mod. The only difference is the label people may slap on it. Plenty of "mods" created totally unique games. And in spite of what you have posted in several places, SoM's user agreement specifically prohibits distribution or reverse engineering of SoM or its components. I'm the one who sent you the ULA text where it said so, so I'm surprised you missed that. The exe's also have built in copy protection and it violates US federal law to bypass that.

To the contrary. I always stress this point. It's the only restriction placed. However I don't think it says "reverse engineering". It specifically says disassembly. Which is boiler plate for all software since that breaks the parameters of the copyright. Coffee (a Japanese SOM user) wrote to From Software and received an encouraging reply saying that reverse engineering is fine. Deciphering file formats has always been legal as far as I know. And I suspect if From was asked about dissasembly for the same purposes the reply would be the same. Emulation is also legal. So disassembly done for no other reason than to extend a product is equivalent to emulating the product with extensions.

Official mod kits often let you remove the entire original game and make something completely new just like SoM. So SoM is a mod and many mod-kits are game making engines if you want to call them that. Such distinctions are just meaningless labels to me. It's like discussing what to call the type of brush you used to paint a picture.

But words have meaning. SOM is closer to a game platform in my mind. It was developed and released as such. So that's patently obvious. The only extent to which you could liken it to a mod would be where it might place limitations on what you can do game mechanics wise. If it was more of a traditional graphics engine I don't think that would be good for users. It's a "game maker" so for that reason its slightly closer to a mod. But we can't just go around calling everything a mod. You might be able to call some especially open ended mod-kits game maker kits. But I don't think it works both ways.


But this thread is not supposed to be about definitions. I made it just to see if I couldn't gleam some insight into how SOM stacks up against alternatives namely including mods. Like one could imagine that if there was a game to end all games, and it had a very rich mod-kit. Then why make anymore games in that genre when new games can just be made with its mod kit for ever more?

[dmpdesign]

I think modding is far more appealing to folks for several reasons -

1 - its much less work to mod an existing game than to try to create one...many folks may have an art talent, or a scripting talent etc that they can 'add' to an existing game...but most folks don't posses the skills to make up an entire development 'team'.

2 - fanbase and ego. ‎  I would guess most folks want to be recognized for their work, modding can be sort of competitive. ‎  if fan A mods a game and fan B makes a different/better mod it boosts their ego. ‎  working on a mod pretty much guarantees you will get downloads, working on a game from scratch could have quite a lackluster result and audience penetration.

3 - modding typically relies on community support, meaning most mods are produced to provide a feature to a game that a large portion of fans request or pine for. ‎  this ties in with point number 2, in that you can get credit for being everyone's hero, and you don't really have to come up with many ideas yourself...just have the skill to pull it off, such as a retexture pack for a game etc.

4 - distribution. ‎  with Steam adding the community workshops for popular games, the modding fans have a great place to distribute their mods..when you create your own game, you have to build your own means to get the word out and find hosting etc.

[dmpdesign]

"I've read on RPG maker forums that the "bottom fell out" of the game making market years back."

I don't know what is truth vs made up stuff, but I can tell you this, unless you think you have a loyal fanbase to draw on (such as King's Field is to SOM) why would you ever try to create a game making tool these days? ‎ 

First of all, if you do, you are limiting the end user in selling that product, which most indie game developers would like to do so they don't have to get a day job ;)

Secondly, there are a variety of professional grade tools already available for that industry (Unreal, Unity etc etc), ones that have been worked on for years and more or less perfected to the point that trying to create something new would just waste your time.

Thirdly, the scope of game making has just exponentially climbed in the last few generations of systems. ‎  Triple A titles that once took a small team to produce now require hundreds of employees, each specialized to pull off graphics, sound and playability that appeals to the modern market. RPG Maker and SOM have a wonderful niche following, but to be fair they are miles away from anything that would sell on modern consoles or PC...at least enough to make money on.

Lastly, just like every other consumer product sold to you, a very small number of companies runs the rest of the game studios we like. ‎  Just as a consumer goods company like Kraft, or Proctor and Gamble own 1/3 of all the companies that produce food or home necessities, video game super powers like electronic arts have bought up hundreds of smaller studio names to produce their games. ‎  Why would they want to take power away from their devs and hand it to the common man? ‎  They don't...what they do instead is partner with companies like Sony and Microsoft to push out indie development into the far corners of their marketplace where no one can find them :P

The VG industry is no different than any other, its been chopped up and bought out by a select few, and you will play their games or be bored searching for something else :P

[Holy_Diver]

RPG Maker and SOM have a wonderful niche following, but to be fair they are miles away from anything that would sell on modern consoles or PC...at least enough to make money on.

I don't know about RPG Maker, but SOM has no following. But neither is SOM miles away. Making a better product than these tinpot companies isn't as difficult as you think. They don't even have an upper hand technologically. Never mind the well known utter rubbishness of their games.

Also the likes of Unreal and Unity are far from perfected. They have some basic graphics capabilities. And a lot of noise. But they don't help people make good games. So they have a long way to go.

The audience for good anything is always a very small slice of humanity. If every movie set out to woo the masses they'd all be drivel wouldn't they. But you can have mainstream crossover success to a point. Look at the Ico games. The only thing that even looks remotely like that is King's Field 4. Which is just a stones throw away from SOM. Which could easily have crossover appeal with the Dark Souls legions for instant notoriety.

SOM could easily be an overnight success story. If I have my way it will be video games 2.0. It will be like 4D games.