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I personally love the fact you will have so many customs, its what makes your game stand out from anyone else's.
Customs add much more to a game than mere graphical eye candy, they allow you to create scenarios that the original assets couldnt handle (cliffs, multi tiered floors, objects to interact with) and they can add significantly to the story.
If someone wanted an eastern based game, then by all means build a set with bamboo and paper houses with little paper candles floating about.
King's field was totally about making the experience believable to the end user, maybe not in graphics, but in other things like eerie echoing sounds, dark lighting techniques, pitfalls, cliff secrets and more. So what if an SOM user wants to use graphics as an extension to add more to the mood? I think its great. If graphics can set the mood and draw in the player, they are every bit as important as any other mod to the SOM system, certainly a hell of a lot more than worrying about a pause feature...
If we really want to get into boat loads of wasted effort...
- Todd DuFore (DMPDesign)
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Pause is actually a huge feature 
Auto pausing is especially important. Anything like that adds way more than a piece of furniture, but that's beside the point. It's great if you can afford to do all of that (for the umpteenth time) but it makes me nervous for that to become the norm, because it gives the impression you need to make such an investment in order to make a game, and you just shouldn't have to. I'm slightly more impressed when people creatively use the toys they have if/whenever possible versus going out and making their own. It's just more economical.
Someone can also make a scifi game with Som but like, it's probably smarter to gradually move in that direction by integrating fantasy scifi elements like say FF4 then moving onto medieval scifi universes like say Phantasy Star, before finally doing something fullblown scifi like say System Shock.
The higher you set your sights, the more likely you are to give up / abandon your project. It's just human nature. I see all kinds of creative things Tom did with Trismegistus for example... the game probably would've been very different if he had an artist to do everything he imagined. Really great works of art tend to come out of artists working within tight constraints. If you take away all constraint you end up with garbage like 99 out of 100 industrial games/movies/you name it that come down the pike. And you just invest a lot when you go that route. The more you invest, the harder you fall, and are less likely to do another game either sooner than you would've otherwise or at all.\
PS: I was asked if I've done anything artwise with Som, and as usual you try to get me into a defensive position. That's not cool.
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(2011-01-11, 04:31 AM)dmpdesign link Wrote:I personally love the fact you will have so many customs, its what makes your game stand out from anyone else's.
Ben doesn't have to of course... and may've expressed that he does not want to... but ideally just like I put 100s of hours into Som on a regular basis, I hope Ben will share his customs with everyone. So in other words provided he does so his game would only "stand out" for a little while until someone made a game using all of the neat things Ben contributed to the community... and before long if everyone played nice "customs" will become a staple of all games.
The only way to make a custom that makes your game stand out is if it's something really peculiar to your particular game. Which I think all games would have a few of these things. And that's the kinda thing I'd advocate going the extra distance to really personalize for your game. But even still people will find ways to repurpose that kind of stuff, or might include it in their games as an homage to your game 
I like to think we're trying to make games differently. But the only thing I know for sure is that's what I'm trying to do 
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I think its great that the people who still use this forum has so many varied and strong opinions. I dont think Todd is placing you in a defending position at all, i just think that he's commenting on you're work as you did his.
Ah well as for standing out, actually i'm not trying my best to make anything stand out, i'm making it different, simply for an interesting experience that could be related to the first time you played Kings field, which is why i'm not releasing a skinny demo that has little sustenance.
I'm really not trying to up any SoM game with what i do, because i respect and value everyones work. I will apply the best techniques i have to make the experience pleasant though, and try to keep the quality standard the best i can.
As for others using my work, thats fine by me, i'd like that. I will be adding my creativity to the SoM pool... But deep down i think i'm trying to inspire those who do want to make something personalised and creative, to enjoy what i've done and enjoy wandering around in their created 3d environment.
I hope you can respect this perspective.
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Todd just has this mean streak you can see coming from a mile away that manifests itself in vindictive postings. I think you and I are both good natured. You need at least two such folk to keep any forum from going into full on mob mode as soon as soon as someone doesn't much like someone or something. It's just part of the culture here in the states anyway. If you don't like something you try to inflict pain upon it. No one knows why afaik, it's a tribal instinct or something. I don't think most people realize when they are being mean. But if someone is aiming to inflict pain consciously or otherwise a defensive posture is a natural one (as far as I'm concerned meanness is never acceptable behavior)
My opinions are not strong or even opinions in this case. I just expressed my hopes and desires. Certainly nothing incompatible with anything anyone has mentioned in this thread.
My only point I think was that it's important or at least possible to be semi aware of the repercussions our own actions intentional or otherwise. Like even the game industry's endless pursuit of bigger and <your favorite adjective here> games has a negative affect upon peoples conception of what is required to produce a game (let's just stick to games) ... I think a more enlightened / self directing culture could be a lot more sensitive to the needs of one another versus blind one-upmanship... especially if what we're trying to do is pool our individual resources in a non-adversarial way.
PS: Sword of Moonlight has not even started as a phenomenon yet. I think we'll have to move away from this forum at some point. But anyway, it's not a question of people "still" using this forum. We are not yet even in the incubation stage. We're kinda like just talking about conception at this point 
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Allright guys:) lets play nice:) I LOVE the fact that ben and I are doing customs work to our title, when you play Rathmor, it will be unlike anything played before on the som format, and I say BRAVO my friend for taking the time...... I myself have invested now OVER ayear making my toolset.. STILL NOT DONE....Not even close in fact, my problem is that when ever I get alot of stuff done , I go back and try to make it better...., I am a perfectionist when it comes to my art, and IT will show......... In holy's defence here....... He is right about one very strong detail........ Giving up.... When you become obsessed with making your own tool set and straying away from the origanal format.... it is easy to just say " what the hell have gotten myself into?" and just throw your hands up and quit........ I my self went 3 months and did not even touch SoM, just because I could not import custom made animated objects......... Now I modeled during that time , but I almost gave up on SoM, because of that.... Now I am happy with a good story driven RPG with BEAUTIFUL visuals, and customs that break the mold ..... Literally.... I came up with a map set that uses round map pieces for a good depth and randomness.... ( the pieces actually overlap and when rotated can give a "real earthy" look and feel) now in Bens defence I killed the stock SoM map set long ago. I have over 2000 made map tiles, ( not all are inplemented of course) some are good and will be used, others well just ideas or stencils.... so when ever the hell Mytrosia comes out;/ you will notice one thing.......... My enviroment will be unlike anything seen in SoM........ And I now am happy with using KF1 (JAP) enemies and NPC's , I gave up on doing customs , with the exception of reskinns.......... Then I got on a 3 month tangent of making the tool set better, (during the time I stopped working on SoM game design) I broke the eula, and dissasembled all the programs down to the source code.... ( lot of good programs for that) , EULA's do have one little option that allows in some cases to alter the software....... If the software is "BROKEN" and you can't reach the author you may then "fix" the source as long as you comment in the code what changes were made......Now long story short....... I was tring to add more VRAM to the program to make it run better on modern machines......... well I did it and it was easy....... so I got greedy and the thought , if I can translated the text in the strings, I can find out where the INI is and change the amout of items and objects per map right? I also know the size of your maps are in the INI as well......... so with alot of work and a little help from babylon........I translated the strings commented coed.......took over a month to do so..........ONLT TO FIND OUT ......in line 6702 after compiling the final coede they DELETED the damb INI ......So all stats that are numerical......Are locked in the source code forever and with out the INI there is no way to find them and alter them..........A trainer would work IF you isolate the correct values, and since they don't move ANY during operation......Well I think you guys get the proverbial "neddle in haystack" So once again I almost gave up on som completly because of its MASSIVE limtations........ But now I have scaled down again and will make mytrosia with what I have to work with.........In the long run a open source game editor that we make BASED on the IDEA of som will ultimatly solve our problem........Until then lets just have fun with the old 11 year old Som and be happy for it is , what it is, and sadly , with only minor additions being available, it is what is will always be........ I hope that makes sence..........So ben Keep on makin those phat objects, and I will too..... and todd.................. Good one......... I agree a year on the pause button, that was more of a waste of time than me trying to make the map 400x400 instead of 99x99.......... But hey atleast he got his pause button to work, I am still using 99x99 map sets........ so persistence and what is important are in the eyes of the beholder........Last thing opinions are like bungholes, we all have em, and to most people besides ourselfves they all stink:) Just my opinion:)
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Youre right ML, I just find it comical that someone who brings absolutely nothing but negativety to a forum can call someone else mean spirited. I am, in fact, definitely trying to be mean in my post simply because I cannot stand the shit Holy posts, and as usual, if someone tries to act similarly to him he takes the "I am a good natured, positive person" reaction.
As far as I am concerned, and ever will be, I wish Holy had not found this forum and would leave, but thats just my opinion.
Anyways, as I know I cannot get the last word on this, I will end this with saying I don't plan to post any more about my dislike of him, because this is not really the place for it, this is a post about rathmor.
So Holy, go ahead and take your fake high road, telling me Im an ass and how wonderful and god like you are. I will continue to anxiously await Ben and Joe's games with whatever they put in them as always, instead of telling them every idea they have is horrible and that if they don't incorporate Ex it will be a waste of everyone's time...blah blah blah, no one cares what you think....go fuck yourself.....blah blah blah
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Excellent to hear from you Joe, you've been persevering like i have, eventhough limitations can bring ya down a bit.
Thanks alot for the words of encouragement, ive realised how taxing doing just one map set can be! Having said that, its well worth it.
Its a shame you didnt get the ram increase Joe... It woulda been pretty fast if you had.
*possible spoiler
Mytrosia i think has a more unique curve to it than my game... *Main reason being that, from what i remember, its set on a completely alien world.* That sounds like a broad scope to have, especially for customs, buildings and environments... It'l be a shift away from the traditional gothic style of KF. Mine follows fairly closely behind KF... *Differences being that my game has completely different weapons and armour.*
I agree Joe, what some would percieve to be a flop, some would see as well worthwhile... I'd guess alot of people i know wouldnt touch SoM. We all take different development paths based on what we want to achieve or portray... So i suppose every game or work is a reflection of the individual / team effort. Thats one of the reasons i like playing DD, because its Todd's game.
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Joe, when do I get spoilers!
- Todd DuFore (DMPDesign)
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(2011-01-13, 05:47 PM)Madison Lastrega link Wrote:Allright guys:) lets play nice:) I LOVE the fact that ben and I are doing customs work to our title, when you play Rathmor, it will be unlike anything played before on the som format, and I say BRAVO my friend for taking the time...... I myself have invested now OVER ayear making my toolset.. STILL NOT DONE....Not even close in fact, my problem is that when ever I get alot of stuff done , I go back and try to make it better...., I am a perfectionist when it comes to my art, and IT will show......... In holy's defence here....... He is right about one very strong detail........ Giving up.... When you become obsessed with making your own tool set and straying away from the origanal format.... it is easy to just say " what the hell have gotten myself into?" and just throw your hands up and quit........ I my self went 3 months and did not even touch SoM, just because I could not import custom made animated objects......... Now I modeled during that time , but I almost gave up on SoM, because of that.... Now I am happy with a good story driven RPG with BEAUTIFUL visuals, and customs that break the mold ..... Literally.... I came up with a map set that uses round map pieces for a good depth and randomness.... ( the pieces actually overlap and when rotated can give a "real earthy" look and feel) now in Bens defence I killed the stock SoM map set long ago. I have over 2000 made map tiles, ( not all are inplemented of course) some are good and will be used, others well just ideas or stencils.... so when ever the hell Mytrosia comes out;/ you will notice one thing.......... My enviroment will be unlike anything seen in SoM........ And I now am happy with using KF1 (JAP) enemies and NPC's , I gave up on doing customs , with the exception of reskinns.......... Then I got on a 3 month tangent of making the tool set better, (during the time I stopped working on SoM game design) I broke the eula, and dissasembled all the programs down to the source code.... ( lot of good programs for that) , EULA's do have one little option that allows in some cases to alter the software....... If the software is "BROKEN" and you can't reach the author you may then "fix" the source as long as you comment in the code what changes were made......Now long story short....... I was tring to add more VRAM to the program to make it run better on modern machines......... well I did it and it was easy....... so I got greedy and the thought , if I can translated the text in the strings, I can find out where the INI is and change the amout of items and objects per map right? I also know the size of your maps are in the INI as well......... so with alot of work and a little help from babylon........I translated the strings commented coed.......took over a month to do so..........ONLT TO FIND OUT ......in line 6702 after compiling the final coede they DELETED the damb INI ......So all stats that are numerical......Are locked in the source code forever and with out the INI there is no way to find them and alter them..........A trainer would work IF you isolate the correct values, and since they don't move ANY during operation......Well I think you guys get the proverbial "neddle in haystack" So once again I almost gave up on som completly because of its MASSIVE limtations........ But now I have scaled down again and will make mytrosia with what I have to work with.........In the long run a open source game editor that we make BASED on the IDEA of som will ultimatly solve our problem........Until then lets just have fun with the old 11 year old Som and be happy for it is , what it is, and sadly , with only minor additions being available, it is what is will always be........ I hope that makes sence..........So ben Keep on makin those phat objects, and I will too..... and todd.................. Good one......... I agree a year on the pause button, that was more of a waste of time than me trying to make the map 400x400 instead of 99x99.......... But hey atleast he got his pause button to work, I am still using 99x99 map sets........ so persistence and what is important are in the eyes of the beholder........Last thing opinions are like bungholes, we all have em, and to most people besides ourselfves they all stink:) Just my opinion:)
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here with all this stuff. There is no disassembler sophisticated enough to disassemble the runtimes. If you know of one please tell us. Even if you did that it would be impressive to make any sense of the disassembly.
If you have animated models already created, you can add them via x2mdl and cpgen as Verdite explained.
There is no concept of "VRAM" which would apply to Som. There is the ram in your PC and your display adapter. If you need more you can buy it. There is no EULA ... though the disclaimer on the website frowns upon disassembly/reassembly presumably for the purpose of making your own competitive product. Coffee got a response from From Software that said anyone is free to reverse engineer the file formats. And as I recall only Japanese citizens are bound by any law which would be related to Som anyway. And that foreigners are free to import Som / presumably make KF games with it.
Anyway if you wanna "hack" Som. Take some C++ night courses and check out the Ex source code. This stuff is all being methodically taken care of. But doing it the right way (the only way I know of) takes time. I'd love to have help of course.
Lofty claims like this just confuse everyone involved.
PS: Ex does a litany of stuff. Pause is of course one of the coolest. It also pauses your game when you go to another window or minimize for example, and the same code pauses the sound when entering a menu so that door closing sound effect doesn't keep playing then not play when you jump back into the game. It also syncs the bgm if like. That said pause is less than 1% of Ex... this fixation of pause seems pretty disingenuous (ie. not cool)
PPS: Pausing an application like Som is no simple feat. It involves every single subsystem in fact. In other words there is no magic pause button for software. Though it would be nice if there was.
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